Curse

Barkam · Mar 05, 2005, 06:57 PM // 18:57

I am designing a build and I was wondering if someone can do the math for me to which would be better against casters. Or can you please direct me to the equations you would use to derive these numbers. Thank you so much.

HotSnack · Mar 05, 2005, 07:17 PM // 19:17

If you're interested in some of that caramel centred equations, then look here and here .

Without looking at the maths, I'd say precision shot is better against casters, but even with an extremely high Expertise, your energy regen won't be able to keep up with spamming Precision Shot.

-You may also want to consider Power Shot or Savage shot as well for your build.

Weezer_Blue · Mar 05, 2005, 07:42 PM // 19:42

I don't like being easily interupted so I went for Power Shot... But precision shot never really misses... So it's prefurance I guess.

Shrapnel_Magnet · Mar 05, 2005, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weezer_Blue

I don't like being easily interupted so I went for Power Shot...

Power shot, to me, is like a poor man's bow attack. Hunter's Shot has the same damage potential and has a chance of causing bleeding when it hits a running target... and it used to cost 5 energy (last BWE), now 10 according to any sources I can find. Also, Power Shot's recharge time is 6 seconds, where Hunter's Shot is only 5. To me, there's really no comparison.

If they reduced Power Shot's energy use to, say 5, then I could justify it's use, but I've never been a big fan of it... especially after finding Hunter's Shot. I never thought that the damage justified my 10 energy (in lower levels especially... when your Expertise points are low). When I stumbled across Hunter's Shot, it was the skill I had been waiting for (at the time it was only 5 energy, so it was stupid not to take it, lol).

If I had to pick between Penetrating Shot and Precision Shot... I'd take Penetrating, mostly because if you're running any skills from your Secondary Class, you're going to want your energy. As for shutting down casters, the Mesmer line has plenty to offer there. Also, Penetrating Shot is more flexible, in my opinion... this is ripped right from Ensign's amazing article on game mechanics:

So while our 30 damage attack from the previous examples dealt a paltry 11.6 damage to a well-defended Warrior, that same attack with 50% armor penetration would deal... 31.3 damage

An attack with 50% armor penetration cuts through Knight's Armor as though it were nothing more than Master's Robes. If you're having trouble taking down a target with an exceptional armor rating, attacks with armor penetration are exactly what you're looking for.

So not only can you cut down a caster with this attack, you can put the hurt on a warrior, if need be. Couple Penetrating Attack with Read the Wind... and the damage really starts to add up. Not only that, Penetratiing attack is definatly spammable.

If you really want to smack someone down, a Ranger/Elementalist can cast Conjure Element* + Read The Wind + Penetrating Shot...

Ellestar · Mar 06, 2005, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Maybe anyone knows, how big is a delay between the start of the shot animation and the moment when attack skill starts to recharge? Say, half-moon bow has fire rate 1,8 s according to this table http://www.guildwarsguru.com/content...ies-id1092.php . Can i spam Penetrating shot (with 3 s recharge) every 2nd shot or every 3rd shot?

Ensign · Mar 06, 2005, 01:38 AM // 01:38

Against casters? Neither. Penetrating Attack isn't sexy unless you're nailing high defense targets, and Precision Shot is a waste of energy.

Use Hunter's Shot until that gets nerfed, then stick to generic damage buffs and auxiliary effects like energy denial and interruption.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ellestar

Maybe anyone knows, how big is a delay between the start of the shot animation and the moment when attack skill starts to recharge?

Attack skills don't start to recharge until after they are used. If you're using a Half Moon Bow (2 second refire), tack two seconds onto the cooldown of a skill to get the full recycle time - if you're using a Longbow, tack on 2.5 seconds, etc.

Penetrating Shot will be once every three shots, not once every two.

Peace,
-CxE

Scaphism · Mar 06, 2005, 02:01 AM // 02:01

First, Hunter's Shot is nice, but it's not strictly better than Power Shot. Not only that, it's not even the question. If energy management ever becomes a concern then swapping out Power Shot for Hunter's becomes a good option.

The real question is a choice between Precision Shot and Penetrating Attack, against casters.
To figure that out, you need to know how much damage your bow is doing, and how much armor your target has.

But really, before you start doing any of the math, you need to ask yourself why you want to use these 2 against casters?

Precision Shot is just Power Shot, but it can't be evaded or blocked, but is easily interrupted. Why are you using this instead of Power Shot? Too many elementalists using Watery Aura? Not likely. Too many people with high tactics? Also unlikely. Forget precision shot and just bring power shot instead, the drawback on precision makes it really unattractive.

As for Penetrating Attack, the 50% armor penetration is nice, but it's more effective against heavily armored targets. It depends on your bow's damage and target's armor, again, so you need to know those ranges first.

The best bows that could be found last BWE had damage ranges from 16-28, +20% customization, for a range of 19.2-33.6 damage, averaging out to 26 damage per shot, not including critical hits.

That's against a target with 60 armor, typical for casters. Unless you're facing a necromancer with Blasphemer's Armor, Mesmer in Rogue's armor, or a Monk with an old set of Judge's Armor. you're unlikely to find a caster with armor vs Physical/Piercing higher than 60.

Against 60 armor, Penetrating Attack (50% armor penetration) will do 44 damage on average. (Minimum 32 damage, maximum 57). (+18 damage on average, minimum +13, maximum +24 damage).

Power Shot will add +24 damage(against a 60 armor target), as long as you have 12 marksmanship, for a total of (26+24)= 50 damage, as opposed to Penetrating Attack's 44. (And you should always have 12 in your weapon if you want to do max damage with it.) So even at its best, Penetrating Attack only breaks even with Power Shot, it is never better. (Against 60 armor)

The more interesting question is when should you start to use Penetrating Shot. The answer is when your average target has more than 75 armor. At 70 armor, penetrating attack will do 40 damage, while power shot will do 42 damage. At 75 armor, penetrating does 38, and power shot does 39. At anything above 75 armor, Penetrating Attack begins to do more damage.

For the math, you'll have to take a look at Ensign's formulas (already linked to above, by HotSnack). They're a good read and essential if you want to understand how the game works.

Barkam · Mar 06, 2005, 09:29 AM // 09:29

Thank you so much for your insights. They all have been very useful.

Ellestar · Mar 06, 2005, 09:49 PM // 21:49

If this data is correct http://www.guildwarsguru.com/content...ess-id1103.php http://www.guildwarsguru.com/content...ies-id1092.php then
Half-moon bow
DPS 15,07
Attack delay 1,8s
Average bow damage: 15.07*1.8=27,126

According to
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/content...nics-id674.php
Defensive Adjustment DA = 2^(( 60 - AL ) / 40)
AL - armor level
Penetrating AL: PAL = AL/2
Penetrating Defensive Adjustment: PDA = 2^(( 60 - AL/2 ) / 40)

Precision shot damage bonus: PrD = 24 * DA
Penetrating shot damage bonus: PcD = attack_damage * ( PDA - DA )

Code:

AL	60	75	80	100	115
DA	1,000	0,771	0,707	0,500	0,386
PDA	1,682	1,477	1,414	1,189	1,044
PDA-DA	0,682	0,706	0,707	0,689	0,659

damage per attack

Code:

AL			60	75	80	100	115
Base bow dmg		27,126	20,917	19,180	13,563	10,459
Penetr bonus dmg	18,49	19,14	19,18	18,70	17,87
Prec bonus dmg		24,00	18,51	16,97	12,00	9,25

Penetrating attack can be used every 5.4 seconds (half-moon bow attack delay*3), 3 mana/use so 3/5.4=0.555 mana/second
Precise attack can be used every 9 seconds (half-moon bow attack delay*5), 5 mana/use so 5/9=0.555 mana/second

Penetr_DPS=Penetr_bonus_dmg/Penetr_Cycle_time
Prec_DPS=Prec_bonus_dmg/Prec_Cycle_time

Bonus Damage Per Second (bonus damage divided by full cycle time 5.4 and 9 seconds respectively, so it's also a "damage per skill slot")
Bonus Damage Per Mana

Code:

AL		60	75	80	100	115
Penetr DPS	3,425	3,545	3,552	3,462	3,309
Prec DPS	2,667	2,056	1,886	1,333	1,028
Penetr DPM	6,165	6,381	6,394	6,232	5,956
Prec DPM	4,800	3,701	3,394	2,400	1,851

So, Penetrating attacks gives a better DPS increase at the same mana/second cost (in other words, more damage per mana).

Also, if you manage to get 13 Expertise, then Penetrating will be even better - 2 energy/use http://www.guildwarsguru.com/content...sts-id1154.php - that improves Penetrating DPM by 50%
Precision and other 10 energy skills will cost 4 energy only with 14 expertise which is harder to achieve because you need 12 Marksmanship anyway.

So, it seems that overall Penetrating shot is always better than precision or power shot - at least, with half-moon bow, and with a good one because effectiveness of a precision shot scales with bow damage while power shot gives a fixed damage bonus.
Penetrating shot gives a better bonus damage/second, bonus damage/skill slot used and bonus damage/mana.

FireMarshal · Mar 06, 2005, 10:15 PM // 22:15

You are talking about Penetrating Attack when you say Piercing Attack, right?

Ellestar · Mar 06, 2005, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by FireMarshal

You are talking about Penetrating Attack when you say Piercing Attack, right?

Ops. Yes. Also, mana is actually energy

***

By the way, what's the latest damage increase of a Power shot? On this site it's 24, on a Guild Hall it's 40 (update 26th Jan. 2005). It will be helpful if there will be a "last update" field in a skill description.

Shrapnel_Magnet · Mar 06, 2005, 11:50 PM // 23:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scaphism

First, Hunter's Shot is nice, but it's not strictly better than Power Shot. Not only that, it's not even the question. If energy management ever becomes a concern then swapping out Power Shot for Hunter's becomes a good option.

I was under the impression that Hunter's Shot was raised to 10 energy. If this is the case, then Power Shot and Hunter's Shot cost the same and do nearly the exact same amount of damage... maybe 1 point less or so for Hunter's Shot... AND Hunter's Shot can cause bleeding if the target is running. I'm not even seeing a comparison between the two here. Power Shot is clearly sub-par, according to my own personal experience and information from others.

I'm sure you'd know more than me, so maybe I'm missing something in my conclusion?

FireMarshal · Mar 07, 2005, 04:08 AM // 04:08

Im not totally sure how these calculations work, so I'll just ask straight out.

Referring to how Penetrating attack works well against high armored foes, what happens if you cast Weaken Armor on the foe before you started attacking?

Assuming a 100 AL Warrior gets hit with a level 10 Weaken Armor (-20 Armor). That effectively takes the Warrior to 80 AL right? Does this make Penetrating shot less useful or more useful in this circumstance? How about if Weaken Armor is applied to a caster(say the caster will end up with 40 AL). Which bow attack is most useful then?

I just ask this because I'm kind of looking for a rounded build. One that can take both casters and warriors effectively, doesnt have to take them down OMGSOFAST, you know.....just more of a rounded build. Mostly wondering how well Weaken Armor would work.

Assume I would be running Read The Wind at level 12 or higher, Assume a good bow.

Thanks!

ps. I do keep trying to follow along with the mathmatics and stuff, and I'm slowing getting it

Sausaletus Rex · Mar 07, 2005, 04:53 AM // 04:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by FireMarshal

I do keep trying to follow along with the mathmatics and stuff, and I'm slowing getting it

Ugh, yu're a better poster than I, then...

But, basically, casting Weaken Armor before casting Precision Shot doesn't change the results that much. Penetrating will still be better against the target with more armor. The target with lower armor will take more damage overall. But the target with higher armor will take more damage as a percentage of what they would have taken. In other words, say you do 40 damage to someone at 40AL, and 20 damage to someone at 80AL. With Penetrating Shot, say you'll do 60 damage to the now 20AL target and 40 damage to the now 40AL target. The 20AL target takes 20 more damage but only 150% more damage overall. The 40AL target takes 20 less damage but takes 200% more damage.

Armor is exponential it doesn't matter what the numbers are you shift, just how you shift the numbers. Weaken Armor and Penetrating Shot shift the numbers in two different ways. Weaken Armor is a flat drop. It's, say, 20AL each and every time, so it's the same increase in damage, as a percent, no matter what starting armor value you apply it to. 40AL, 60AL, 256AL, the end result is that you'll be 20AL, and about 20% more damage. You'll never do more damage comparing what you'll do to two targets with different armors to the target with more armor than you will to the target with less armor. The percent difference is the same so you're just raising the overall damage you're doing.

Precision Shot, on the other hand, drops armor as a percentage. There it matters where the starting armor's value is because the higher that number the more it's going to drop. 50% of 80 is a lot more than of 60 or 30 or whatever else. Again, the target with more armor isn't going to take more damage here, although the higher armored target will take more damage as a percent, you'll never get enough penetration that a target starting out at high armor is going to suffer worse than a target with lower armor from the same percentile reduction.

What adding Weaken Armor to the equation does is to change the break-even point where it becomes more effective to use Precision Shot than to use a skill that just does straight damage. It doesn't affect the oveerall outcome.

FireMarshal · Mar 07, 2005, 07:14 AM // 07:14

Ok, let me see if I got this right:

Base Damage is 26 for all calcs. AL is Targets Armor Level. AP is Armor Penetration. TD is total damage. Comparing Standard Attack vs. Penetrating Attack vs. Hunters Shot. Why Hunters? Because they both cost the same, ATM. Easier to compare energywise. And yes, I am a little bored right now...Overall, I see no reason to not take Penetrating attack. It looks far more beneficial than Hunters Shot could be. Im not taking Power Shot into play because of the higher energy cost.

If you ask me, I think Hunters Shot, Power Shot, and Penetrating Attack should all have the same Energy Cost. You get Bleeding from Hunters Shot which makes up the lost damage to Power Shot. One thing that stands out from this list is Penetrating Attack+Read the Wind. I mean, WOW, the damage is quite awesome considering the 4 energy cost total with level 13 Expertise. I just hope I didnt screw up anywhere.....

Another thing that would be fun to try is Judges Insight + the Bow skills, but thats for another day lol. Im tired.

Ok, I did just one:

Penetrating Attack w/Read the Wind+Judges Insight

Code:

AL-60     80     100
AP-70     70      70
TD-85     77      69

Enjoy.

Standard Attack

Code:

AL-60     80     100
AP- 0      0       0
TD-26     18      13

Standard Attack w/Weaken Armor

Code:

AL-40     60      80
AP- 0      0       0
TD-37     26      18

Standard Attack w/Read The Wind

Code:

AL-60     80     100
AP- 0      0       0
TD-41     29      21

Standard Attack w/Weaken Armor+Read the Wind

Code:

AL-40     60      80
AP- 0      0       0
TD-58     41      29

Penetrating Attack

Code:

AL-60     80     100
AP-50     50      50
TD-44     37      31

Penetrating Attack w/Weaken Armor

Code:

AL-40     60      80
AP-50     50      50
TD-52     44      37

Penetrating Attack w/Read the Wind

Code:

AL-60     80     100
AP-50     50      50
TD-69     58      49

Penetrating Attack w/Weaken Armor+Read the Wind

Code:

AL-40     60      80
AP-50     50      50
TD-82     69      58

Hunters Shot

Code:

AL-60     80     100
AP- 0      0       0
TD-43     30      22

Hunters Shot w/Weaken Armor

Code:

AL-40     60      80
AP- 0      0       0
TD-61     43      30

Hunters Shot w/Read the Wind

Code:

AL-60     80     100
AP- 0      0       0
TD-58     41      29

Hunters Shot w/Weaken Armor+Read the Wind

Code:

AL-40     60      80
AP- 0      0       0
TD-82     58      41

Cyrus the Mighty · Mar 07, 2005, 07:15 AM // 07:15

Stay far, far away from precision shot. Easily interruptable makes it quite worthless. You just can't rely on an attack skill that's easily interruptable. I tried precision shot for one round of tombs and immediately regretted wasting a skill point on it.